请教各位大神，西蒙·拉特与伯明翰的马勒第六交响曲 第二第三乐章问题

万物枯荣

西蒙·拉特与伯明翰的马勒6，发现这一版的第二、第三乐章前后次序和其他版本都不一样。

拉特把“Andante”放在第二乐章演奏，“Scherzo (Wuchtig)”第三乐章演奏。


这里面有故事吗？恳请大神指点迷津。万分感谢！

山水意

。。顺下来的感觉应该是行板第二，更顺滑一些。。。

万物枯荣

tyj518 发表于 2022-1-9 00:21
马六二三乐章的次序是个老问题了。根据wiki的说法，马勒于1904年完成第六交响曲并于1906年三月首次出版时， ...

非常感谢详尽的解答！

zeppelin

没啥问题，顺序不同而已

lonelywalker

tyj518 发表于 2022-1-9 00:21
马六二三乐章的次序是个老问题了。根据wiki的说法，马勒于1904年完成第六交响曲并于1906年三月首次出版时， ...

专业！

tyj518

以下是英文wiki列出的一些马勒第六交响曲的录音或录像，按照二三乐章的次序进行了分类，打星号的表示第四乐章敲了三次锤。

谐谑曲 - 行板
Erich Leinsdorf, Boston Symphony Orchestra, RCA Victor Red Seal LSC-7044
Jascha Horenstein, Royal Stockholm Philharmonic Orchestra, Unicorn UKCD 2024/5 (live recording from 1966)
Leonard Bernstein, New York Philharmonic,[16] Sony Classical SMK 60208 (*)
Václav Neumann, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, Berlin Classics 0090452BC
George Szell, Cleveland Orchestra, Sony Classical SBK 47654
Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam, Q-DISC 97014 (live performance from November 1968)
Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, Deutsche Grammophon 289 478 7897-1
Rafael Kubelik, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, Audite 1475671 (live recording of 6 December 1968 performance)
Bernard Haitink, Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam, Philips 289 420 138-2
Jascha Horenstein, Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, BBC Legends BBCL4191-2
Georg Solti, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Decca 414 674-2
Hans Zender, Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra, CPO 999 477-2
Maurice Abravanel, Utah Symphony, Vanguard Classics SRV 323/4 (LP)
Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic, Deutsche Grammophon 289 415 099-2
Leonard Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic, Deutsche Grammophon DVD 440 073 409-05 (live film recording from October 1976) (*)
James Levine, London Symphony Orchestra, RCA Red Seal RCD2-3213
Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic, Saint Laurent Studio (live recording of 17 June 1977 performance)
Herbert von Karajan, Berlin Philharmonic, Fachmann FKM-CDR-193 (live recording of 27 August 1977 performance)
Kirill Kondrashin, Leningrad Philharmonic Orchestra, Melodiya CD 10 00811
Václav Neumann, Czech Philharmonic, Supraphon 11 1977-2
Claudio Abbado, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Deutsche Grammophon 289 423 928-2
Milan Horvat, Philharmonica Slavonica, Line 4593003
Kirill Kondrashin, SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg, Hänssler Classic 9842273 (live recording from January 1981)
Lorin Maazel, Vienna Philharmonic, Sony Classical S14K 48198
Klaus Tennstedt, London Philharmonic Orchestra, EMI Classics CDC7 47050-8
Klaus Tennstedt, London Philharmonic Orchestra. LPO-0038 (live recording from the 1983 Proms)
Erich Leinsdorf, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, Orfeo C 554 011 B (live recording of 10 June 1983 performance)
Gary Bertini, Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra, EMI Classics 94634 02382
Giuseppe Sinopoli, Philharmonia Orchestra, Deutsche Grammophon 289 423 082-2
Eliahu Inbal, Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra, 1986, Denon Blu-spec cd (COCO-73280-1)
Leonard Bernstein, Vienna Philharmonic, Deutsche Grammophon 289 427 697-2 (*)
Michiyoshi Inoue, Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Pickwick/RPO CDRPO 9005
Bernard Haitink, Berlin Philharmonic, Philips 289 426 257-2
Riccardo Chailly, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Decca 444 871-2
Hartmut Haenchen, Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra, Capriccio 10 543
Hiroshi Wakasugi, Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, 1989, Fontec FOCD9022/3
Leif Segerstam, Danish Radio Symphony Orchestra, Chandos CHAN 8956/7
Christoph von Dohnányi, Cleveland Orchestra, Decca 289 466 345-2
Klaus Tennstedt, London Philharmonic Orchestra, EMI Classics 7243 5 55294 28 (live recording from November 1991)
Anton Nanut, Radio Symphony Orchestra Ljubljana, Zyx Classic CLS 4110
Neeme Järvi, Royal Scottish National Orchestra, Chandos CHAN 9207
Antoni Wit, Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, Naxos 8.550529
Seiji Ozawa, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Philips 289 434 909-2
Yevgeny Svetlanov, State Symphony Orchestra of the Russian Federation, Warner Classics 2564 68886-2 (box set)
Emil Tabakov, Sofia Philharmonic Orchestra, Capriccio C49043
Edo de Waart, Radio Filharmonisch Orkest, RCA 27607
Pierre Boulez, Vienna Philharmonic, Deutsche Grammophon 289 445 835-2
Zubin Mehta, Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, Warner Apex 9106459
Thomas Sanderling, Saint Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra, RS Real Sound RS052-0186
Yoel Levi, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, Telarc CD 80444
Michael Gielen, SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg, Hänssler Classics 93029
Günther Herbig, Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra, Berlin Classics 0094612BC
Michiyoshi Inoue, New Japan Philharmonic, 2000, Exton OVCL-00121
Michael Tilson Thomas, San Francisco Symphony, SFS Media 40382001 (recorded September 2001)
Bernard Haitink, Orchestre National de France, Naïve V4937
Christoph Eschenbach, The Philadelphia Orchestra, Ondine ODE1084-5B
Mark Wigglesworth, Melbourne Symphony Orchestra, MSO Live 391666
Bernard Haitink, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, CSO Resound 210000045796
Gabriel Feltz, Stuttgart Philharmonic, Dreyer Gaido 9595564
Vladimir Fedoseyev, Tchaikovsky Symphony Orchestra of Moscow Radio, Relief 2735809
Eiji Oue, Osaka Philharmonic Orchestra, Fontec FOCD9253/4
Takashi Asahina, Osaka Philharmonic Orchestra, Green Door GDOP-2009
Jonathan Nott, Bamberg Symphony Orchestra, Tudor 7191
Esa-Pekka Salonen, Philharmonia Orchestra, Signum SIGCD275
Hartmut Haenchen, Orchestre Symphonique du Théatre de la Monnaie, ICA Classics DVD ICAD5018
Antal Doráti, Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, Helicon 9699053 (live recording of 27 October 1963 performance)
Lorin Maazel, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, RCO Live RCO 12101 DVD
Paavo Järvi, Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra, C-Major DVD 729404
Jukka-Pekka Saraste, Oslo Philharmonic, Simax PSC1316 (*)
Pierre Boulez, Lucerne Festival Academy Orchestra, Accentus Music ACC30230
Antonio Pappano, Orchestra dell'Accademia Nazionale di Santa Cecilia, EMI Classics (Warner Classics 5099908441324)
Lorin Maazel, Philharmonia Orchestra, Signum SIGCD361
Jaap van Zweden, Dallas Symphony Orchestra, DSO Live
Libor Pešek, Ceski Narodni Symfonicky Orchestr, Out of the Frame OUT 068
Václav Neumann, Czech Philharmonic, Exton OVCL-00259
Zdeněk Mácal, Czech Philharmonic, Exton OVCL-00245
Vladimir Ashkenazy, Czech Philharmonic, Exton OVCL-00051
Eliahu Inbal, Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, 2007, Fontec SACD (FOCD9369)
Eliahu Inbal, Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, 2013, Exton SACD (OVCL-00516 & OVXL-00090 "one point recording version")
Gary Bertini, Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, Fontec FOCD9182
Georges Prêtre, Wiener Symphoniker, Weitblick SSS0079-2
Giuseppe Sinopoli, Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra, Weitblick SSS0108-2
Rudolf Barshai, Yomiuri Nippon Symphony Orchestra, Tobu YNSO Archive Series YASCD1009-2
Martin Sieghart, Arnhem Philharmonic Orchestra, Exton HGO 0403
Heinz Bongartz, Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra, Weitblick SSS0053-2
Teodor Currentzis, MusicAeterna, Sony Classical 19075822952
Paavo Järvi, NHK Symphony Orchestra, Tokyo, RCA Victor Red Seal SICC 19040
Michael Gielen, SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg, SWR Classic SWR19080CD (live concert performance from 1971)
Michael Tilson Thomas, San Francisco Symphony, SFS Media (digital release, UPC 821936007723, live recording of September 2019)
Tomas Netopil, Essen Philharmonic, Oehms Classics OC 1716

行板 - 谐谑曲
Charles Adler, Vienna Symphony Orchestra, Spa Records SPA 59/60
Eduard Flipse, Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra, Philips ABL 3103-4 (LP), Naxos Classical Archives 9.80846-48 (CD)
Dimitri Mitropoulos, New York Philharmonic,[16] NYP Editions (live recording from 10 April 1955)
Eduard van Beinum, Concertgebouw Orchestra, Amsterdam, Tahra 614/5 (live recording from 7 December 1955)
Sir John Barbirolli, Berlin Philharmonic, Testament SBT1342 (live recording of 13 January 1966 performance)
Sir John Barbirolli. New Philharmonia Orchestra, Testament SBT1451 (live recording of 16 August 1967 Proms performance)
Sir John Barbirolli, New Philharmonia Orchestra, EMI 7 67816 2 (studio recording, 17–19 August 1967)
Harold Farberman, London Symphony Orchestra, Vox 7212 (CD)
Heinz Rögner, Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, Eterna 8-27 612-613
Simon Rattle, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, EMI Classics CDS5 56925-2
Glen Cortese, Manhattan School of Music Symphony Orchestra, Titanic 257
Andrew Litton, Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Delos (live recording, limited commemorative edition)
Sir Charles Mackerras, BBC Philharmonic, BBC Music Magazine MM251 (Vol 13, No 7) (*)
Mariss Jansons, London Symphony Orchestra, LSO Live LSO0038
Claudio Abbado, Berlin Philharmonic, Deutsche Grammophon 289 477 557-39
Iván Fischer, Budapest Festival Orchestra, Channel Classics 22905
Mariss Jansons, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, RCO Live RCO06001
Claudio Abbado, Lucerne Festival Orchestra, Euroarts DVD 2055648
Simone Young, Hamburg Philharmonic, Oehms Classics OC413
David Zinman, Tonhalle Orchester Zürich, RCA Red Seal 88697 45165 2
Valery Gergiev, London Symphony Orchestra, LSO Live LSO0661
Jonathan Darlington, Duisberg Philharmonic, Acousence 7944879
Petr Vronsky, Moravian Philharmonic Orchestra, ArcoDiva UP0122-2
Fabio Luisi, Vienna Symphony, Live WS003
Vladimir Ashkenazy, Sydney Symphony Orchestra, SSO Live
Riccardo Chailly, Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra, Accentus Music DVD ACC-2068
Markus Stenz, Gürzenich Orchestra Köln, Oehms Classics OC651
Daniel Harding, Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, BR-Klassik 900132
Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, BPH 7558515 (live recording from 1987)
James Levine, Boston Symphony Orchestra, BSO Classics 0902-D
Osmo Vänskä, Minnesota Orchestra, BIS 2266
Simon Rattle, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra (live recordings from 1987 and 2018, with DVD of 2018 performance)
Michael Gielen, SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg, SWR Classic SWR19080CD (live concert performance from 2013)
Hans Rosbaud, Southwest German Radio Symphony Orchestra, SWR 19099 (live recording)
ádám Fischer, Düsseldorfer Symphoniker, CAvi-music AVI 8553490 (*)

tyj518

马六二三乐章的次序是个老问题了。根据wiki的说法，马勒于1904年完成第六交响曲并于1906年三月首次出版时，将谐谑曲定为第二乐章，行板为第三乐章。但1906年五月马勒为首演进行排练时，却决定调换这两个乐章的演奏次序。根据马勒同事的说法，马勒即使在排练完成后依然对这两个乐章的次序犹豫不定。此后乐谱再版时采取的是行板在前谐谑曲在后的次序。但1919年，门格尔贝格针对这两个乐章的次序问题询问马勒的遗孀阿尔玛，阿尔玛电报答复应该是“先谐谑曲，然后行板”。此后门格尔贝格演奏马勒第六交响曲时，均依照阿尔玛答复的次序。不过同时期的其他指挥家还是根据马勒的再版乐谱（先行板后谐谑曲）来演奏。直至1963年，Erwin Ratz为国际马勒协会修订乐谱时，重新将次序定为“谐谑曲－行板”，声称这是马勒临去世前做出的最终决定，不过他并未提供阿尔玛的电报或其它证据来支持他的观点，这引发了其他学者的质疑与讨论，有部分学者从整个交响曲调性布局的角度出发支持“谐谑曲－行板”的顺序。1968年，欧伊伦堡出版社出版的由Hans Redlich修订的乐谱也采用了“谐谑曲－行板”的顺序。此后的多数演出也大都采用了“谐谑曲－行板”的顺序。但2004年，时任国际马勒协会副主席兼马勒乐谱全集总主编的Reinhold Kubik又声称“先行板，然后谐谑曲”才是马勒的真正意思，此后国际马勒协会出版的乐谱也变为“行板 - 谐谑曲”，采用这个顺序的演出在最近二三十年逐渐增多。